Discussion:
Relationship Between Borderline Personality Disorder And Bipolar Disorder, Long-Term Study
(too old to reply)
Snell
2006-07-05 12:05:19 UTC
Permalink
An article you might find interesting:

Results from a long-term study indicate that borderline personality
disorder (BPD) and bipolar disorder do not commonly coexist, a finding
which has important implications for treatment. The findings are
reported in the July 2006 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry
(AJP), the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association
(APA).

Link to the article:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=46236&nfid=crss

Happy reading. Snell.
- darkman® -
2006-07-05 21:14:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snell
Results from a long-term study indicate that borderline personality
disorder (BPD) and bipolar disorder do not commonly coexist, a finding
which has important implications for treatment. The findings are
reported in the July 2006 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry
(AJP), the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association
(APA).
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsidF236&nfid=crss
Happy reading. Snell.
Good post Snell. You ought to bring this to Sonja's attention.

- darkman® -
- darkman® -
2006-07-05 21:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snell
Results from a long-term study indicate that borderline personality
disorder (BPD) and bipolar disorder do not commonly coexist, a finding
which has important implications for treatment. The findings are
reported in the July 2006 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry
(AJP), the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association
(APA).
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsidF236&nfid=crss
Happy reading. Snell.
Good post Snell,

You might Ping Sonja so that she can see it.

- darkman® -
Harry
2006-07-06 21:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by - darkman® -
Post by Snell
Results from a long-term study indicate that borderline personality
disorder (BPD) and bipolar disorder do not commonly coexist, a finding
which has important implications for treatment. The findings are
reported in the July 2006 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry
(AJP), the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association
(APA).
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsidF236&nfid=crss
Happy reading. Snell.
Good post Snell,
You might Ping Sonja so that she can see it.
- darkman® -
Many counselors have problems diagnosing-not understanding the
difference between bipolar & BPD.I never had a case where they were
both prominent.counselors find BPD a stiff challenge to treat.Harry
Harry
2006-07-24 22:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by - darkman® -
Post by Snell
Results from a long-term study indicate that borderline personality
disorder (BPD) and bipolar disorder do not commonly coexist, a finding
which has important implications for treatment. The findings are
reported in the July 2006 issue of The American Journal of Psychiatry
(AJP), the official journal of the American Psychiatric Association
(APA).
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsidF236&nfid=crss
Happy reading. Snell.
Good post Snell,
You might Ping Sonja so that she can see it.
- darkman® -
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Maggie
2006-07-25 16:15:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.

I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.

I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.

Professional opinions welcome.

thanks,

M
Harry
2006-07-25 21:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
Professional opinions welcome.
thanks,
M
You're probably right,that would make sense.I don't have a DSM-IV
about,since writing & music take the time.I always told them you are
smart.Harry
Harry
2006-07-25 21:14:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
Professional opinions welcome.
thanks,
M
You're probably right,that would make sense.I don't have a DSM-IV
about,since writing & music take the time.I always told them you are
smart.Harry
Harry
2006-07-25 21:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
Professional opinions welcome.
thanks,
M
you're likely right.That would make as much sense as the DSM IV does.
Pablo
2006-07-25 23:42:36 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, ***@aol.com
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.

An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.

Pablo
Maggie
2006-07-26 01:29:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.

As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.

of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?

As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.

That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.

Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!

M
Pablo
2006-07-27 02:45:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maggie
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.
As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.
of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?
I will let Nom make med suggestions. There might be some ADHD meds that
do not trigger manic/hypomanic episodes. I would suggest, however, that
you continue to stay organized if you find that it helps you. Many
folks with ADHD find that keeping lists is helpful. Visit the ADSD
usenet group for lots of suggestions. Tell them I sent you. (Hopefully
they won't throw eggs at you!)

I will also say that many people zone out from time to time. This does
not have to be chalked up to mental illness. We live in busy times,
with overstimulation at nearly every turn. It is no wonder that many of
us are chronically stuck between fight and flight. Perhaps this is a
trite statement, but we need to be gentle with ourselves and accept that
sometimes we will feel overwhelmed.

One thing I have tried to do is simplify my life as much as possible.
In this age of instant communication, I do not have a cell phone. I
make use of a fax machine at work, but I have no home fax. No instant
messaging. (This is one reason why I do not use multiple accounts/socks
on Usenet.) My kids have all the fancy gadgets, but I don't make use of
them. Ipod? No thanks. A relative gave me a DVD player one Christmas,
and it is still in the box. I am a man of nature. Simple is better for
me.
Post by Maggie
As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.
If indeed the therapist said this, it is poor clinical practice. A
therapist cannot properly diagnose someone she/he has never met. It
might be that your sister's therapist told her this to mollify her. It
might also bee that your sister said this to get you riled.
Post by Maggie
That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.
Yep.
Post by Maggie
Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!
You are quite welcome, Maggie.

Pablo
Harry
2006-07-27 21:50:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.
As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.
of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?
I will let Nom make med suggestions. There might be some ADHD meds that
do not trigger manic/hypomanic episodes. I would suggest, however, that
you continue to stay organized if you find that it helps you. Many
folks with ADHD find that keeping lists is helpful. Visit the ADSD
usenet group for lots of suggestions. Tell them I sent you. (Hopefully
they won't throw eggs at you!)
I will also say that many people zone out from time to time. This does
not have to be chalked up to mental illness. We live in busy times,
with overstimulation at nearly every turn. It is no wonder that many of
us are chronically stuck between fight and flight. Perhaps this is a
trite statement, but we need to be gentle with ourselves and accept that
sometimes we will feel overwhelmed.
One thing I have tried to do is simplify my life as much as possible.
In this age of instant communication, I do not have a cell phone. I
make use of a fax machine at work, but I have no home fax. No instant
messaging. (This is one reason why I do not use multiple accounts/socks
on Usenet.) My kids have all the fancy gadgets, but I don't make use of
them. Ipod? No thanks. A relative gave me a DVD player one Christmas,
and it is still in the box. I am a man of nature. Simple is better for
me.
Post by Maggie
As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.
If indeed the therapist said this, it is poor clinical practice. A
therapist cannot properly diagnose someone she/he has never met. It
might be that your sister's therapist told her this to mollify her. It
might also bee that your sister said this to get you riled.
Post by Maggie
That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.
Yep.
Post by Maggie
Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!
You are quite welcome, Maggie.
Pablo
Knowing the DSM IV is admirab,I suppose .Also,when it comes to practice
I prefered learning about therapy(like Laing,Frankl & Janov)-I get the
picture of "what's the matter here"-& do not try memorize "the book","a
compendiumof social antropology" at that time..Same for the Big Book,I
like the Red Book better.I'd never offend one(just ask Maggie).You
would have great to work with,Pablo.Good to meet ya again -Harry
Pablo
2006-07-28 23:54:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.
As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.
of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?
I will let Nom make med suggestions. There might be some ADHD meds that
do not trigger manic/hypomanic episodes. I would suggest, however, that
you continue to stay organized if you find that it helps you. Many
folks with ADHD find that keeping lists is helpful. Visit the ADSD
usenet group for lots of suggestions. Tell them I sent you. (Hopefully
they won't throw eggs at you!)
I will also say that many people zone out from time to time. This does
not have to be chalked up to mental illness. We live in busy times,
with overstimulation at nearly every turn. It is no wonder that many of
us are chronically stuck between fight and flight. Perhaps this is a
trite statement, but we need to be gentle with ourselves and accept that
sometimes we will feel overwhelmed.
One thing I have tried to do is simplify my life as much as possible.
In this age of instant communication, I do not have a cell phone. I
make use of a fax machine at work, but I have no home fax. No instant
messaging. (This is one reason why I do not use multiple accounts/socks
on Usenet.) My kids have all the fancy gadgets, but I don't make use of
them. Ipod? No thanks. A relative gave me a DVD player one Christmas,
and it is still in the box. I am a man of nature. Simple is better for
me.
Post by Maggie
As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.
If indeed the therapist said this, it is poor clinical practice. A
therapist cannot properly diagnose someone she/he has never met. It
might be that your sister's therapist told her this to mollify her. It
might also bee that your sister said this to get you riled.
Post by Maggie
That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.
Yep.
Post by Maggie
Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!
You are quite welcome, Maggie.
Pablo
Knowing the DSM IV is admirab,I suppose .Also,when it comes to practice
I prefered learning about therapy(like Laing,Frankl & Janov)-I get the
picture of "what's the matter here"-& do not try memorize "the book","a
compendiumof social antropology" at that time..Same for the Big Book,I
like the Red Book better.I'd never offend one(just ask Maggie).You
would have great to work with,Pablo.Good to meet ya again -Harry
It is always a pleasure to interact with you, Harry.

I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-) How did I know you were
an Existentialist?

P.
HoPpeR© trading at 1492¥
2006-07-29 00:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-) How did I know you were
an Existentialist?
Don't let existentialist put you out.

Be well,

HoP

The preceding message represents personal opinions
and/or advice that may prove incorrect or harmful. But then maybe not.
Feel free to disregard.

------- Words have no Warranty ------
------- No View without Merit ------
..
Harry
2006-07-29 21:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.
As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.
of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?
I will let Nom make med suggestions. There might be some ADHD meds that
do not trigger manic/hypomanic episodes. I would suggest, however, that
you continue to stay organized if you find that it helps you. Many
folks with ADHD find that keeping lists is helpful. Visit the ADSD
usenet group for lots of suggestions. Tell them I sent you. (Hopefully
they won't throw eggs at you!)
I will also say that many people zone out from time to time. This does
not have to be chalked up to mental illness. We live in busy times,
with overstimulation at nearly every turn. It is no wonder that many of
us are chronically stuck between fight and flight. Perhaps this is a
trite statement, but we need to be gentle with ourselves and accept that
sometimes we will feel overwhelmed.
One thing I have tried to do is simplify my life as much as possible.
In this age of instant communication, I do not have a cell phone. I
make use of a fax machine at work, but I have no home fax. No instant
messaging. (This is one reason why I do not use multiple accounts/socks
on Usenet.) My kids have all the fancy gadgets, but I don't make use of
them. Ipod? No thanks. A relative gave me a DVD player one Christmas,
and it is still in the box. I am a man of nature. Simple is better for
me.
Post by Maggie
As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.
If indeed the therapist said this, it is poor clinical practice. A
therapist cannot properly diagnose someone she/he has never met. It
might be that your sister's therapist told her this to mollify her. It
might also bee that your sister said this to get you riled.
Post by Maggie
That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.
Yep.
Post by Maggie
Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!
You are quite welcome, Maggie.
Pablo
Knowing the DSM IV is admirab,I suppose .Also,when it comes to practice
I prefered learning about therapy(like Laing,Frankl & Janov)-I get the
picture of "what's the matter here"-& do not try memorize "the book","a
compendiumof social antropology" at that time..Same for the Big Book,I
like the Red Book better.I'd never offend one(just ask Maggie).You
would have great to work with,Pablo.Good to meet ya again -Harry
It is always a pleasure to interact with you, Harry.
I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-) How did I know you were
an Existentialist?
why not?Everybody's gotta exist,right.maybe not like Dr. Laing
Pablo
2006-07-30 12:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.
As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.
of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?
I will let Nom make med suggestions. There might be some ADHD meds that
do not trigger manic/hypomanic episodes. I would suggest, however, that
you continue to stay organized if you find that it helps you. Many
folks with ADHD find that keeping lists is helpful. Visit the ADSD
usenet group for lots of suggestions. Tell them I sent you. (Hopefully
they won't throw eggs at you!)
I will also say that many people zone out from time to time. This does
not have to be chalked up to mental illness. We live in busy times,
with overstimulation at nearly every turn. It is no wonder that many of
us are chronically stuck between fight and flight. Perhaps this is a
trite statement, but we need to be gentle with ourselves and accept that
sometimes we will feel overwhelmed.
One thing I have tried to do is simplify my life as much as possible.
In this age of instant communication, I do not have a cell phone. I
make use of a fax machine at work, but I have no home fax. No instant
messaging. (This is one reason why I do not use multiple accounts/socks
on Usenet.) My kids have all the fancy gadgets, but I don't make use of
them. Ipod? No thanks. A relative gave me a DVD player one Christmas,
and it is still in the box. I am a man of nature. Simple is better for
me.
Post by Maggie
As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.
If indeed the therapist said this, it is poor clinical practice. A
therapist cannot properly diagnose someone she/he has never met. It
might be that your sister's therapist told her this to mollify her. It
might also bee that your sister said this to get you riled.
Post by Maggie
That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.
Yep.
Post by Maggie
Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!
You are quite welcome, Maggie.
Pablo
Knowing the DSM IV is admirab,I suppose .Also,when it comes to practice
I prefered learning about therapy(like Laing,Frankl & Janov)-I get the
picture of "what's the matter here"-& do not try memorize "the book","a
compendiumof social antropology" at that time..Same for the Big Book,I
like the Red Book better.I'd never offend one(just ask Maggie).You
would have great to work with,Pablo.Good to meet ya again -Harry
It is always a pleasure to interact with you, Harry.
I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-) How did I know you were
an Existentialist?
why not?Everybody's gotta exist,right.maybe not like Dr. Laing
Sometimes I just wanna scream. ;-)

Pablo
Harry
2006-07-29 21:48:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
Post by Pablo
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Okay, thank you for clearing this up....i knew one of you could.
As to ADD i am a suspect.....spacy, zone out, miss things right in
frount of me and have always tried to minimize the damage by being
extreemly well organized....with a view to having my life run as idiot
proof as possible. Even to the point of being described as a person
with amazing pockets of organization in anotherwise chaotic life.
of course,,,,,this stategy is a must when hepressed and i tend to let
things slide.
I think they just won't put me on any ADD meds that might trigger
hypomania?
Can you make any suggestions?
I will let Nom make med suggestions. There might be some ADHD meds that
do not trigger manic/hypomanic episodes. I would suggest, however, that
you continue to stay organized if you find that it helps you. Many
folks with ADHD find that keeping lists is helpful. Visit the ADSD
usenet group for lots of suggestions. Tell them I sent you. (Hopefully
they won't throw eggs at you!)
I will also say that many people zone out from time to time. This does
not have to be chalked up to mental illness. We live in busy times,
with overstimulation at nearly every turn. It is no wonder that many of
us are chronically stuck between fight and flight. Perhaps this is a
trite statement, but we need to be gentle with ourselves and accept that
sometimes we will feel overwhelmed.
One thing I have tried to do is simplify my life as much as possible.
In this age of instant communication, I do not have a cell phone. I
make use of a fax machine at work, but I have no home fax. No instant
messaging. (This is one reason why I do not use multiple accounts/socks
on Usenet.) My kids have all the fancy gadgets, but I don't make use of
them. Ipod? No thanks. A relative gave me a DVD player one Christmas,
and it is still in the box. I am a man of nature. Simple is better for
me.
Post by Maggie
As to BPD.....the closest i've ever come to having had that suggested
to me is when my whacko sister...the worst one...tell me that she had
discussed me with her therapist and she reports that the therapist, who
has never met me or had any communication with me, told my sister that
i must surly be BPD.
If indeed the therapist said this, it is poor clinical practice. A
therapist cannot properly diagnose someone she/he has never met. It
might be that your sister's therapist told her this to mollify her. It
might also bee that your sister said this to get you riled.
Post by Maggie
That was a thrill....which of course i (and my shrink) chalking up to
my sister being her usual whacko self. who knows what the therapist
actually said....or how qualizied she was to be making armchair
diagnosises of 3rd parties unknown to her.
Yep.
Post by Maggie
Thanks for the infor, Pabs. You are a chammpion!
You are quite welcome, Maggie.
Pablo
Knowing the DSM IV is admirab,I suppose .Also,when it comes to practice
I prefered learning about therapy(like Laing,Frankl & Janov)-I get the
picture of "what's the matter here"-& do not try memorize "the book","a
compendiumof social antropology" at that time..Same for the Big Book,I
like the Red Book better.I'd never offend one(just ask Maggie).You
would have great to work with,Pablo.Good to meet ya again -Harry
It is always a pleasure to interact with you, Harry.
I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-) How did I know you were
an Existentialist?
why not?Everybody's gotta exist,right.maybe not like Dr. Laing
Maggie
2006-07-30 21:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
It is always a pleasure to interact with you, Harry.
I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-)
How did I know you were
Post by Pablo
an Existentialist?
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?

Maggie
Harry
2006-08-02 00:47:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pablo
Post by Pablo
It is always a pleasure to interact with you, Harry.
I try not to let the DSM get in the way. :-)
How did I know you were
Post by Pablo
an Existentialist?
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
haven't I mentioned Kierkegaard?Carl Rogers found him "meaningful"
Maggie
2006-08-02 14:10:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
How did I know you were
Post by Pablo
an Existentialist?
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
haven't I mentioned Kierkegaard?Carl Rogers found him "meaningful"
Sure you have. but the nym was the first clue.

Thought that might have slipped through unnoticed?

Maggie
Has library card, as does harry
marcia
2006-08-02 22:50:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
How did I know you were
Post by Pablo
an Existentialist?
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
haven't I mentioned Kierkegaard?Carl Rogers found him "meaningful"
Sure you have. but the nym was the first clue.
Thought that might have slipped through unnoticed?
Maggie
Has library card, as does harry
(...as in Stack Sullivan? Sorry, I've been paying selective
inattention. :))

marcia
Maggie
2006-08-03 16:45:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by marcia
Post by Maggie
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
(...as in Stack Sullivan? Sorry, I've been paying selective
inattention. :))
marcia

No, it's a referemnce to German author Hermann Hesse who won the Nobel
prize for Literature in 1946.

Harry and I have a long history here...often referred to as the Harry &
Maggie show.

We met her on this n/g 4-5 years ago and are actually considering
married to each other and moving to Oxford Mississipi (Ole
Miss).....deep in William Faullkner country.

Hw won the Noble Price for literature, too.

Maggie
and no, I'm not kidding
Harry
2006-08-04 20:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by marcia
Post by marcia
Post by Maggie
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
(...as in Stack Sullivan? Sorry, I've been paying selective
inattention. :))
marcia
No, it's a referemnce to German author Hermann Hesse who won the Nobel
prize for Literature in 1946.
Harry and I have a long history here...often referred to as the Harry &
Maggie show.
We met her on this n/g 4-5 years ago and are actually considering
married to each other and moving to Oxford Mississipi (Ole
Miss).....deep in William Faullkner country.
Hw won the Noble Price for literature, too.
Maggie
and no, I'm not kidding
only in "Theories of Personality" would the professors let me
discuss.HS Sullivan,they all liked his looks.But they're not ready for
Jung,thought him too esoteric.then there's Karen Horney-oola la la-Harry
marcia
2006-08-05 12:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
Post by marcia
Post by marcia
Post by Maggie
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
(...as in Stack Sullivan? Sorry, I've been paying selective
inattention. :))
marcia
No, it's a referemnce to German author Hermann Hesse who won the Nobel
prize for Literature in 1946.
Harry and I have a long history here...often referred to as the Harry &
Maggie show.
We met her on this n/g 4-5 years ago and are actually considering
married to each other and moving to Oxford Mississipi (Ole
Miss).....deep in William Faullkner country.
Hw won the Noble Price for literature, too.
Maggie
and no, I'm not kidding
only in "Theories of Personality" would the professors let me
discuss.HS Sullivan,they all liked his looks.But they're not ready for
Jung,thought him too esoteric.then there's Karen Horney-oola la la-Harry
Hi Harry & Maggie,

What happened to your message, Maggie? I read it last night, then went
to respond, only to find it missing. :)

Ah, ... inside jokes from a longterm relationship. No wonder I was
confused. :)

I loved Faullkner's short stories when I was younger, and understand
that part of the country is still lovely. The fantasy sounds nice. :)

Harry, who, won the Pulitzer? This ^ Harry? The one posting on ASDM?
That's truly an impressive accomplishment. I wonder if I've read your
work?

marcia
Maggie
2006-08-05 19:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by marcia
I loved Faullkner's short stories when I was younger, and understand
that part of the country is still lovely. The fantasy sounds nice. :)
Yeah, we both have very strong roots in the Delta.

As to fantasies......even the Irish bookies would tell you I'm a dark
horse. You never can tell til it hits the photo finish.

But as to this one. exit visas are iminent and I'm known to be a
defector. the role of Maggie Sheridan may soon be played by her
understudy.

There's no use playing if you're winning in a losing game.

The same wag wrote another line that's always seemed to describe me:

When people don't know what you mean
They may laugh at you and call you green.
They say your words are stupid and you plans are only schemes.
Truth is simple but seldom ever seen.
Let nothing come between.....

You know the rest of it.

I am so fucking sick of living this shadow life.....time for the
Phoenix to rise from the ashes yet again.

Maggie
marcia
2006-08-05 12:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
Post by marcia
Post by marcia
Post by Maggie
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
(...as in Stack Sullivan? Sorry, I've been paying selective
inattention. :))
marcia
No, it's a referemnce to German author Hermann Hesse who won the Nobel
prize for Literature in 1946.
Harry and I have a long history here...often referred to as the Harry &
Maggie show.
We met her on this n/g 4-5 years ago and are actually considering
married to each other and moving to Oxford Mississipi (Ole
Miss).....deep in William Faullkner country.
Hw won the Noble Price for literature, too.
Maggie
and no, I'm not kidding
only in "Theories of Personality" would the professors let me
discuss.HS Sullivan,they all liked his looks.But they're not ready for
Jung,thought him too esoteric.then there's Karen Horney-oola la la-Harry
Hi Harry & Maggie,

What happened to your message, Maggie? I read it last night, then went
to respond, only to find it missing. :)

Ah, ... inside jokes from a longterm relationship. No wonder I was
confused. :)

I loved Faullkner's short stories when I was younger, and understand
that part of the country is still lovely. The fantasy sounds nice. :)

Harry, who, won the Pulitzer? This ^ Harry? The one posting on ASDM?
That's truly an impressive accomplishment. I wonder if I've read your
work?

marcia
acoftil
2006-08-07 16:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by marcia
What happened to your message, Maggie? I read it last night, then went
to respond, only to find it missing. :)
When a post goes missing, it is usually a short retention time on your providers
schedule or the poster did not archive their message. If it happens again, you
might want to contact your news group provider.

HTH,
Nancy
Just knockin' around the zoo. (James Taylor)

to email me, remove the Z

Harry
2006-08-06 21:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Harry
Post by marcia
Post by marcia
Post by Maggie
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
(...as in Stack Sullivan? Sorry, I've been paying selective
inattention. :))
marcia
No, it's a referemnce to German author Hermann Hesse who won the Nobel
prize for Literature in 1946.
Harry and I have a long history here...often referred to as the Harry &
Maggie show.
We met her on this n/g 4-5 years ago and are actually considering
married to each other and moving to Oxford Mississipi (Ole
Miss).....deep in William Faullkner country.
Hw won the Noble Price for literature, too.
Maggie
and no, I'm not kidding
only in "Theories of Personality" would the professors let me
discuss.HS Sullivan,they all liked his looks.But they're not ready for
Jung,thought him too esoteric.then there's Karen Horney-oola la la-Harry
you 've been with the professors-& they've all liked your looks-Dylan
marcia
2006-08-03 00:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
Post by Pablo
How did I know you were
Post by Pablo
an Existentialist?
Perhaps the first clue was the reference to Hesse in his nym?
Maggie
haven't I mentioned Kierkegaard?Carl Rogers found him "meaningful"
Sure you have. but the nym was the first clue.
Thought that might have slipped through unnoticed?
Maggie
Has library card, as does harry
(Hmmm. I thought it was Harry Stack Sullivan... must have been paying
selective inattention...)

(Could have sworn I posted this earlier...if so, sorry, ignore... over
budget for the day anyway.)

m
acoftil
2006-07-26 17:00:12 UTC
Permalink
Warning Will Robinson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <g>

Somewhere in our archives is Colleen's story. I wish I had time to fish it out.

Bipolar, ADD and ADHD are organic disorders--they are caused by circumstances
(our genetic make up) beyond your control.

Borderline personality disorder is NOT an organic disease. It is a personality
disorder and therefore not a bona fide mental illness in the sense that
medications are rarely used to treat it. BPD must be treated keeping in mind
that it took years for BPD to develop and the client must unlearn poorly learned
behavior. It is a death sentence if you are applying for any kind of aid.

Colleen lost her SS, because one evaluator casually mentioned she had BPD. No
other doctor in the history of her treatment ever suggested that to her. It
took her the better part of a year to have BPD removed (formally) from all her
medical records and get her SS back.

FYI,
Nancy
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
Tim
2006-07-28 19:02:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by acoftil
Warning Will Robinson!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <g>
Somewhere in our archives is Colleen's story. I wish I had time to fish it out.
Bipolar, ADD and ADHD are organic disorders--they are caused by circumstances
(our genetic make up) beyond your control.
''A Norwegian twin study suggested that personality disorders are more
strongly determined by genetics than are almost all the Axis I
disorders.7 Moreover, the psychological damage caused by abuse and
neglect may be modulated by deleterious effects on the "hard-wiring" of
the CNS.8 It should not, therefore, be surprising that many patients
with personality disorders exhibit structural and functional brain
abnormalities, or that certain medications may be beneficial in these
disorders.''

7= Torgersen S, Lygren S, Oien PA, et al. A twin study of personality
disorders. Compr Psychiatry. 2000;41:416-425.


http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/Personality-Disorders/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=191000148
Post by acoftil
Borderline personality
disorder is NOT an organic disease. It is a personality
Post by acoftil
disorder and therefore not a bona fide mental illness in the sense that
medications are rarely used to treat it.
'Rarely' is something of an exaggeration.Much is made of the relative
lack of success of pharmacological interventions but that may well
reflect the failure to develop medications specifically targeting
BPD.




An increasing amount of research involving various forms of brain
abnormality and genetics place
BPD within the realm of a mental illness using the dominant 'medical model'.

IMO Hagop Akiskal is on the right track.
Post by acoftil
that it took years for BPD to develop and the client must unlearn poorly learned
behavior.
It is a death sentence if you are applying for any kind of aid.

That i would most definitely agree on
Post by acoftil
Colleen lost her SS, because one evaluator casually mentioned she had BPD. No
other doctor in the history of her treatment ever suggested that to her. It
took her the better part of a year to have BPD removed (formally) from all her
medical records and get her SS back.
FYI,
Nancy
Post by Pablo
Post by Maggie
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.
An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.
Pablo
--
http://www.newsisfree.com/showpage.php?user=timgatty&page=1039155069(MH
NEWS)
http://www.newsisfree.com/showpage.php?user=timgatty&page=1141047353(NEWS)
Pablo
2006-07-25 23:42:36 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@corp.supernews.com>, ***@aol.com
used fingers to say...
Post by Maggie
Post by Harry
It wouldn't have be likely,as Axis 1 & Axis II.Many therapists misdx
the two,no surpise.If they did "coexist",it would be an unhappy
mess.Bipolars do coexist with some others,like avoidant and
dependent.But the doctor is presribing only most of the time,so he/she
is thinking bipolar
Okay, Harry, as someone who actually practiced in this field, maybe
youand or Pablo can clear this up.
I seem to remember that the DSM clearly excludes Borderline Personality
disorder when the patient is BP.....because the symptoms of BPD can be
explained by the manifestations of BP.
The DSM does not exclude Borderline Personality Disorder for people with
Bipolar Disorder. It states: "Borderline Personality Disorder often co-
occurs with Mood Disorders, and when criteria for both are met, both may
be diagnosed. Because the cross-sectional presentation of Borderline
Personality Disorder can be mimicked by an episode of Mood Disorder, the
clinician should avoid giving an additional diagnosis of Borderline
Personality Disorder based only on cross-sectional presentation without
having documented that the pattern of behavior has an early onset and a
long-standing course" (DSM IV-TR, p. 709).
Post by Maggie
I am sure this is the same with ADHD......excluded because symptoms can
be explained by manifestation of BP.
No, there can be co-occurrence.

An important phrase you use here (in both situations) is "because
symptoms can be explained..." ADHD should not be diagnosed if symptoms
are better explained (but not "because symptoms can be explained") by a
mood disorder, more accurately, manic, mixed, or hypomanic episodes.
ADHD does not involve expansive/elevated mood.

Pablo
Loading...